New Delhi: General (Retired) MM Naravane, the former Indian Army Chief, on Wednesday asserted that the only way to ensure peace is to prepare for war and that is the biggest lesson that ongoing wars between Russia and Ukraine and Israel and Hamas have taught us.
The former Army Chief, whose tenure witnessed the sudden escalation of border tensions with China that led to the June 2020 Galwan incident and subsequently to a massive rebalancing of forces talks about the "political will" which is required to solve the 'boundary question' between India and China.
He asserted that Chinese President Xi Jinping had not congratulated Prime Minister Narendra Modi after he had been sworn in for the third successive time. The former Army chief also feels that China is not open to having good relations with India.
Here are the excerpts from the Exclusive interview:
ETB: What lessons can we draw from the ongoing war between Russia-Ukraine and Israel and Hamas?
General (Retd) Naravane: There are many lessons to be drawn from both these conflicts, both at the strategic level as well at the operational/tactical level. In the fog of war, the real ground-level lessons will only emerge once the war is over and the dust settles down. Yet there are some higher-level lessons that are immediately evident which are not influenced by propaganda and Information Warfare. The first and foremost lesson, of course, is that wars will happen in spite of a desire for peace and of wanting to resolve disputes through dialogue.
After a prolonged period of peace, after all the Kargil War was 25 years ago, there is a false sense of security and a hypothesis that wars are passe. Nothing is further from the truth. In fact, the only way to ensure peace is to prepare for war. This is the biggest lesson. As far as the Hamas-Israel conflict is concerned, once again it reinforces the fact that violence is always around the corner and that the price of peace is eternal vigilance. There is no doubt that the attack on October 7 by Hamas was a dastardly terrorist attack that needs to be condemned in the strongest possible terms. Violence against non-combatants and innocent women and children has no place in a civilised society.
However, there has to be a proportionality in the response to terrorist strikes and it has to be directed at the perpetrators of the terrorist act and not to the population at large. The overwhelming use of force and the resultant collateral damage and humanitarian crisis is the reason why Israel is losing all its moral support globally. Therefore at the strategic level, if we want/ desire peace, we need to be prepared for war, and for that, we need good infrastructure and an ecosystem.
ETB: Do we have that kind of infrastructure and ecosystem?
General (Retd) Naravane: We have to build it and we are already doing that. The ongoing wars have taught us a lesson that wars could be long-drawn as is evident in the ongoing Russia-Ukraine or Israel-Hamas war. So, we need equipment, technology and an ecosystem to sustain ourselves. The Indian Army is undergoing rapid modernisation and is increasingly looking at indigenous options.
ETB: Do we need more private investment?
General (Retd) Naravane: Yes, certainly. Not only do we need more private investment but we must also have the capacity and capability to utilise civilian infrastructure for military purposes. We must be able to ramp up our production and that ramping will not happen overnight. For example, we need to build an ecosystem where a company that is making tractors should be able to adapt their skills to tanks as well. For that, we need a coordinated approach from all the stakeholders.
ETB: A military-industrial complex is also taking firm root in India, we are also talking about 'Aatmanirbharta' in the defence sector. Where do we stand?
General (Retd) Naravane: On the military-industrial complex, we are on the lower scale at this moment, but we are making progress. Aatmanirbharta will not happen overnight, and it will take years. We kept the civil industrial complex out of the defence arena for a very long period, which was the monopoly of the defence public sector undertakings. Now that they have stepped into the ring, it has made a big difference in the way we have been able to modernise more rapidly.
ETB: Much has been said about the theaterisation plan to bring in jointness within the Armed forces. The Centre recently notified the Inter-Services Organisations (Command, Control and Discipline) Act. Where do you see it heading?
General (Retd) Naravane: This is one more step towards the overall object of theaterisation.
ETB: Why is it taking so long?
General (Retd) Naravane: It's not going to be a very easy or quick transition. There is a broad consensus towards the contours of theatre commands. We are already on the right track and it will happen in due course. We should not create artificial deadlines and let the stakeholders do their work. Broadly speaking, at the conceptual level we are saying that there should be one theatre for one front. For example - let us take Pakistan, where we have the Northern Command, the Western Command, the South-Western Command and the Southern Command - all four commands are looking at one adversary and each have their plans of what they will do in times of war. The idea is to integrate all these commands into one Theatre. So, there will be one theatre looking into the Western front. Similarly, one theatre looking after the Northern front and one looking after the maritime affairs. Theaterisation is not an end in itself. It is only a means to an end, and that end needs to be specified first in the form of the defence strategy.
ETB: You have earlier also spoken about the need to have a National Security Strategy. Why do you think that successive governments have failed to come up?
General (Retd) Naravane: We should have a National Security Strategy (NSS) but I don't think that we should make comparisons with others. Britain had its first formal NSS only in the late 2000s, more than 300 years after it became a modern nation-state. So, we are working on that, and it needs synergy between all the ministries and departments. It's a very narrow view that the NSS only deals with military security. People should understand that NSS would be at the national level dealing with multiple security challenges such as food security, energy security and as the pandemic highlighted, even health security. It is a whole of nation approach and effort.
ETB. At this moment, we are seeing how China has been making inroads into Maldives, Sri Lanka, Myanmar, Nepal, Pakistan, and Bhutan. How do you see it?
General (Retd) Naravane: Our Foreign Minister (S Jaishankar) has recently said that politics and diplomacy are two different things. In the case of Maldives, there was an anti-India campaign which was at the political level but now we are seeing how they are thanking us for our quick support and financial aid. All these countries are our neighbours and India has always maintained a neighborhood-first policy and we have remained consistent on that. We are on good terms with all these countries. Whenever there is a crisis in any of these countries, it's India, which comes to the rescue first and not China, the US or any other distant country. People at the ground level know who their real friends are.
ETB: Reports claim that Chinese weapons are being supplied to war-stricken Myanmar and we have been seeing problems in North-East and in Manipur?
General (Retd) Naravane: China has a long boundary with Myanmar. Yes, they are fishing in troubled waters and we should be aware of such developments that have complications in the northeast. The involvement of foreign agencies also cannot be ruled out. There are agencies/actors who benefit from the violence and would never want a situation of normalcy.
ETB: You have served as the IG of Assam rifles. Ever since the ethnic clashes began in Manipur, voices coming from the state government have been saying that Assam Rifles should be replaced with other border guarding forces such as ITBP or BSF. What is your view on this?
General (Retd) Naravane: The replacement of Assam Rifles with Border Security Force (BSF) is an old demand which comes up every five-seven years. It came even during my tenure there (2014). During that time, BSF personnel came in and did a recce. We all cooperated and there were no issues. Soon after they did their recce, they went back and nothing more was heard. Now again the same demand has reared its head. Notwithstanding, the Assam Rifles are a professional force and will continue to discharge their duties as mandated. The Assam Rifles have been there for more than 100 years and are very much familiar with the ground situation, local population and tribal dynamics. There are vested interests who are calling for the replacement of Assam Rifles.
ETB: Are you in favour of AFSPA?
General (Retd) Naravane: When we talk about the Armed Forces (Special Powers) Act, of 1958, we always put the cart before the horse. When the law-and-order situation in a particular area has gone beyond the control of the local administration, the area is declared a 'disturbed area.' When the state police or the central police fail to control the violence, the Army is brought in to maintain peace and normalcy. And for that, we need legal protection. AFSPA only gives us police powers to carry out internal security duties at par with what the police have. If there is no law-and-order issue, there is no need for AFSPA. Therefore, we should first maintain law and order and that is what is required in Manipur or for that matter, in any of our troubled states, where the Army has been called in aid to civil authority.
ETB: What about human rights violations? Recently, we all saw horrendous videos of officers beating and torturing civilians in Poonch?
General (Retd) Naravane: I cannot comment on it as I too know only what is available in the media which is not always factually correct. All I can say is that we have zero tolerance for such cases of human rights violations. In the discharge of these difficult duties where it is difficult to distinguish friend from foe, mistakes may happen. These are taken cognisance of, and if found mala fide dealt with seriously. We have zero tolerance for such behaviour.
ETB: In your previous comments, you said we were earlier hesitant to call China the biggest threat even after Doklam but the Galwan clash in June 2020 changed that?
General (Retd) Naravane: There was a school of thought that advocated having a non-controversial approach towards China, but that reciprocal goodwill was missing. Even now it is evident from the fact that (Chinese President) Xi (Jinping) has still not congratulated our PM (Narendra Modi), that China is still not open to having good relations.
ETB: Several talks have happened between India and China and we have made some gains. But still, we've not achieved the status quo prior to the Galwan clash. How much more time will it take? Can the status quo be achieved?
General (Retd) Naravane: We are on track and we have been engaging both at the military level and at the diplomatic level. But instead of discussing a few disputed areas, we should instead discuss the whole boundary issue and resolve it in its entirety.
ETB: Can this government now that it has come to power again, solve this whole issue?
General (Retd) Naravane: Yes, I believe they can do so, provided there is the political will on both sides.
ETB: When is your book coming out? Why do you think that the Ministry of Defence is putting a hold on it? Is it because of your opposition to Agnipath?
General (Retd) Naravane: The Ministry of Defense is reviewing it, and it would not be ethical to comment on its contents. I've nothing for and against it and it is their prerogative to review it. As of now, it is between the Publisher and the Ministry. Agnipath is a very workable scheme but any such mega reform requires time and midcourse corrections based on periodic reviews and feedback. This will not happen overnight. Our Defence Minister (Rajnath Singh) in a recent interview said that they are open to changes, if required. All new schemes require some time to mature and stabilise. Let us give that space rather than jumping to conclusions and trying for quick-fix solutions.
