Exclusive Interview with Nirbhaya case advocate Seema Kushwaha

The soul of Nirbhaya, who became the victim of the horrendous act of brutality in the year 2012, heaved a sigh of relief after a wait of seven long years. When all the four accused in the Nirbhaya case were hanged in 2020, people across the country termed the development as the victory of justice. On the eight anniversary of the Nirbhaya, here is an exclusive interview of Seema Kushwaha with ETV Bharat, where she shares her views and thoughts on a number of issues including porn sites, live-in culture, LGBT laws and other matters in a candid manner. Here is an exclusive interview of Seema Kushwaha by ETV Bharat Delhi State head Vishal Suryakant.

QUESTION:The decision of the court in the Nirbhaya case had created a history so far as the punishment is concerned. You have been an important contributor in creating this history. Today, when you look back at this journey, what thoughts come to your mind?

ANSWER:The way things happened with Nirbhaya was horrifying. They were six criminals. Four of them were punished. I was satisfied with this decision. The daughter wanted them to be burnt alive, but this was not possible as there is no such provision in our laws. There is the provision of capital punishment in the IPC under which they were punished. But the pain has still not subsided. Today is the day – December 16. There is a thought in my mind. I wish our daughter was alive. I would not have hanged those guilty. So a lot of questions arise that a human has a natural death, a human dies from some disease, but this type of death belongs to someone else and that too in our country where we say that we have women who are worshiped like a goddess. Oh, I just cannot believe. It was 8:30. On Delhi’s road which is called our capital, the daughter was trampled for an hour. Parts of her body were destroyed. So there are so many questions. Why is the atmosphere like this in our country? Why are such crimes happening? How many people will we punish? Can it be stopped through legislation? Is there no need for social change? Those who committed this crime knew that they were going to commit a crime. So why was there no fear in them? From which community do they come? Which mindset do they come from? Even after March 20, these crimes are continued such as the Hathras case, Disha Reddy case and the case of Lalitpur in Uttar Pradesh, where the neighbour rapes and burns the victim alive. So why are these crimes not stopping? What is lacking in our system? Are our laws weak? Or is our morale weak? Does our society live with a dual character, which on one side considers women as goddesses and on the other torture them like anything. So who are those people who do not consider women as common human beings? All these questions remain as intact as these were then. But it is you and us who can try and work on making our society a better place to live.

QUESTION: Social trends, the view of women, or the law of inferiority -- which do you consider to be the main reason due to which heinous incidents have not stopped even today?

ANSWER:I think social trends and the way we look at the women are the cause of this problem, because the structure of law is an offshoot of our societal set up. And this society is a male dominated society. And such crimes are not only happening on the roads but also inside the houses. Let me give the example of a case where a woman was raped by her husband’s elder brother and her husband knew this. In such a case, the mindset can be blamed. In a way, it is a failure of the law that we are not able to change such a mindset. But for those who manipulate the system according to their own system, they blame social mentality for such happenings. Be it the judiciary or the police, they come from the same society from where all these criminals come. Therefore, after December 16, we had the Verma Commission, whose recommendations have not yet been implemented. We have changed the IPC, CrPC and Juvenile Justice Act but till date these have not been implemented. This is the reason that till date there has not been a change in the thinking of the people and there is no fear among the criminals.

QUESTION: It is said that if laws are strengthened, then these will create discrimination within the society. People also feel that the abuse of laws will increase. How far these things are true, according to you?

ANSWER: In any case if the conviction rate is high, then those cases should be less, but it is not so. The reasons are known. In many cases settlement is done. As a result, there is no fear in the minds of the criminals, who later commit many such crimes. According to our law, hanging is not permissible in rape cases. Our law gives death penalty only in rape-cum-murder case. If the offender gets punishment within six months of raping, then there can be a reduction in the rape case. But we fail here. We focus on opinion more than solutions. In many cases where there should be a sentence of two years, the case runs in the court for 10 years and culprits are out on the bail. No criminal is made at once. The experience of not being punished by committing a crime makes him a criminal. The criminals of Nirbhaya also had cases of robbery, and molestation against them, and they were guilty. Here I would like to appreciate the Government of Maharashtra, which has implemented a law in the name of Shakti, in which the culprit will be hanged for rape.

QUESTION: The thoughts of leaders continue to influence the views of our society. And in such cases, leaders are often seen to have insensitive thoughts. How do you see it after the Nirbhaya case?

ANSWER:There are many people who listen to their leaders and obey their words. Even those who say or do what they say, others too believe that they can also do all this. Making laws in Parliament and keeping your thinking different in the public domain are the two different things. And when things are different and laws are made, but there will be no one to obey these laws. SP MP Azam Khan of Uttar Pradesh used lewd words for actress and politician Jayaprada. Journalists misbehave with their own female colleagues, and police indulge in acts of rape. If such is the behaviour of the lawmaker to the people who frame and also ensure the implementation of laws, then how is the possible to establish the fear of law among the people? Only honesty towards the works is the solution to all these maladies we have in abundance today.

QUESTION: What is your opinion about the demand to empower the Women’s Commission in the country?

ANSWER:There are many Women Commissions and organizations in the country which are influenced by politics because of which these bodies are not able to carry out their works honestly. In 2017, I met Union Minister Rajnath Singh, who was India's Home Minister. I had asked him to pass the Women Safety Guarantee Act in which the government guarantees the victim woman that she will be helped in every way. But the Act could not be passed in Parliament at that time. If this law was passed, there would be a lot of reforms. We have several instances where women or girls are attacked with acid. I have seen that there are so many NGOs and public funding for acid victims, but why does the government not take responsibility. You, I mean, the government should guarantee women’s safety and security. Why don't you protect women? You can support them in checking crimes being committed against them as soon as they are provided with protection. How much people will move from pillar to post for justice? Why the government does not take the responsibility for women’s safety is a million dollar question today. You have made the MNREGA scheme. If there is poverty, then you will give 100 days of employment to an applicant. You have made a food security scheme. You have made the Right to Education Act, but as far as 49 per cent of the population is concerned who are not safe, you are not ready to guarantee their safety and security.

QUESTION:Section 498 of IPC – was introduced for the protection of women. We have other laws to check crimes which are committed in the name of dowry but the problem of dowry is not yet over. There are also complaints that the law is being misused. Even if there is a guarantee, how to ensure that the law is not abused?

Major rape cases after Nirbhaya

ANSWER:The misuse of laws must be important. It is very important to do so. Our investigative agencies have the highest responsibility to ensure that laws are not abused and are implemented. The more they will be active, the better it will work. It will help us find out quite easily who is right or who is wrong. Unfortunately, our agencies do not have the technology. They are not sensitive as well. They do not get the facilities, because of which the decisions are delayed. As a result, the desired results are not there. The girl if she has filed a case and is from a strong family background, she can even get a false case registered by paying money. When this happens, then questions are raised over the system. The second problem is that due to dowry, there are murders and misuse of the law. How much is its percentage. Who needs to be stopped first – criminals or the misuse of law? When we talk about Section 498A or domestic violence, we should know that there is a provision that if you are mentally or physically abused, then you should make a case for mental and physical cruelty. The structure of our society is such that mother-in-law, father-in-law or other kin try to show their supremacy. It is also a torture to talk about another marriage. In such a situation, if women say that they get mental harassment, it is right. The son should go to his in-law’s house and he asks for a chain, does it not become a case of dowry torture. Let me tell you that if Section 498 and domestic violence law are implemented properly, then there will be 75 per cent decline in the cases, which come to the court for resolution. How will the harassment be reduced if the superiors do not get out of their comfort zones? Till deaths are not involved in dowry cases, we do not take dowry harassment cases seriously.

QUESTION:You have seen laws very closely and minutely. There are similar cases that give fillip to crimes against women like porn sites. There is no check. Sometimes the governments of the country take some action, but not so decisively. What you have to say about all this?

ANSWER:I completely agree with your first question. Many porn sites are available in the public domain. We have not given sex education to our children. They are seeing such things through the net, which are not known to them. When these things are going into their minds, they will commit crimes with their hands. We really should regulate them properly. Strict laws should be made. Pay attention to how the child is creating their email ID. Children need to be told about their wrong usage. Nowadays, children know which technology to use. Children are more attracted towards the unavailable material in the society. That is why I believe that there should be strict laws and a system of their implementation as well. Those watching child porn sites and other such sites will have a similar mindset and they will commit similar crimes.

QUESTIONWhat will you say about laws on living relations, LGBTs... Society is not openly accepting all this, but the law is in force. In such a situation, society and legal provisions come in conflict with each other.

ANSWER: So far as a live-in relationship is concerned, an adult person has decided that he wants to live with someone but he is not obligated to be married. So you have to see if a house is falling apart. Live-in and the law of marriage have different provisions and conditions. But in a way, live-in laws also give permission to extra marital relations. This law should have been made only for non-married people. Society in the developed part of the world and its people have a progressive mind and outlook where such laws were made. In the age of globalization, we have implemented some things of the other society without experimentation. It is called a progressive law but its disadvantage is more. Live-in relationships are going through a transition period. We have liberalized the law but the society is not being made liberal. You are not giving such education and your system is not so developed as well. Then the problems will always be there. We have to change everything completely. Only then, laws like live-in will work. We are bringing such things in the name of progressive law but our society is not ready for all this. This is where we do not get the benefit of such laws, because of all these things, we have to face false cases.